To Watch the interview chick here
Cameraman: Faiz Baloch
Interview by: Homayoon Mobaraki
Assistance and advise: Dr Mustafa Baloch
Edited and Produced by: Homayoon Mobaraki
Language: Balochi
English subtitle & Translation: Faiz Baloch
Following is the full transcript of the Interview
HM: Waja Hyrbyair Marri, I’m very pleased that you gave time to Rozhn TV. Thank you for joining us, Waja.
HBM: Thank you.
HM: As I remember I met you two year ago. I wanted to interview you, but for some reasons you weren’t able to speak to us. Can you explain why you couldn’t speak to us at that time?
HBM: When you came [to London], at that time there was a pending case against me and Faiz Baluch. The government of this country (UK) had detained us for some time. Later we were released on bail, with strict conditions: We were not allowed to speak to the media. We were not allowed to phone anyone in Baluchistan. We had to report to a police station every day. We were not to leave home (between 8 pm – 9 am) and the police would come around our homes many times. They probably wanted to make sure that we didn’t try to leave the country. Due to these restrictions I could not speak to you when we last met (two years ago).
HM: If I’m not mistaken these restrictions were imposed on you at the behest of the government of Pakistan. Am I correct, was this the case?
HBM: The restrictions were imposed on us by the government of Britain; the court had imposed these conditions on us before it accepted our bail applications. The judge had said that we should refrain from doing any political activities. There were several other conditions, as well, but one of them was that we were not to give interviews.
HM: How did this affect you personally?
HBM: Well, restrictions of movement were imposed on us—from 8 pm. One of the reasons that I was allowed to leave home at 8 am was that I had to take my children to school.
HM: It means life was made really difficult for you. They froze all your Bank Accounts, as well?
HBM: They didn’t freeze my account, but they did check all records—phone and everything. My account was closed at one point, but I said I would take legal action and then they reopened it.
HM: There are many other political and non-political Baluch activists, but why were all these restrictions imposed only on you? Is there any specific reason?
HBM: Britain was pressured by Pakistan, the Musharraf regime. The atrocities that Pakistan was committing against people in Baluchistan I was trying to expose them through my statements to the media and in meetings with people here in Britain. The Baluch Nation listened to what I had said in my statements. They realised that Pakistan wanted to make life difficult for the Baluch people. Pakistan was looting Baluch Natural resources. I was trying to educate people. Pakistan and its army did not like my statements and for that reason they pressured the government of Britain. Also British security forces were stuck in Wazirstan and Helmand, Afghanistan, so Pakistan was able to apply this pressure to arrest us.
Another reason was that the UK wanted Rashid Rauf, the mastermind of the transatlantic bombers; he had fled to Pakistan and was arrested there. The British asked for his extradition. Pakistan planned to make a swap and demanded the extradition of eight Baluch activists from the UK. My name was among them. Their plan was to extradite Rashid Rauf to the UK and, in exchange, they wanted us either extradited to Pakistan or detained here in Britain.
HM: Many groups at the international level tried to tell the British Court that the allegations against you were wrong and you were innocent. For how long were you held in prison and were under house arrest before you regained your liberty?
HBM: We were in Prison for around five months, and then we were released on bail. The court process and trial lasted for year, so all together it was more than a year. The jury decided that I was not guilty on most charges. The government (crown prosecution service) dropped the remaining charges against me due to lack of evidence. The prosecution tried their best to find evidence against me. They went to Pakistan—were in Islamabad for a long time—where they interviewed several people, but they could not find anything against us. They wanted to keep us detained in order to appease Pakistan.
HM: How did this affect you both personally and politically? Were you compensated by the courts? Were you happy with the decision of the judge to acquit you?
HBM: The judge did not decide anything; it was a jury comprising twelve men and women that acquitted us. The judge was legally bound to accept the jury’s decision and they decided in our favour. My friend Faiz was acquitted of all charges and I was cleared from three cases. The jury could not decide on two charges. The Crown prosecution service later decided to drop those cases as they did not have any evidence against me. Their plan was to keep us in prison as long as they could. As for compensation, no, they did not compensate us. Neither did we ask for any sort of compensation. They did not even apologise for wrongfully detaining us.
HM: What was the response of the Baluch people in Baluchistan? How did they support you politically when you were wrongfully detained?
HBM: The Baluch peoples’ response has been very good. Generally most Baluch parties and individuals played an important role by making statements and organising protests in our favour. We used to read them in newspapers while we were in prison. The Baluch youth did well, too. They protested in front of British Embassy in Pakistan and wrote letters to officials. They gave statements in our favour in local news papers and tried to tell the world that our arrest was a ploy. The Baloch Community abroad also did their best; and friends in London worked hard to convince the outside world, including the UK, that this case was an utter blunder.
HM: You mentioned Faiz Baluch. Why was he arrested along with you? Can you explain?
HBM: I knew Faiz Baluch and he was also staying in London. We had become friends. We had a common understanding; perhaps that is why they arrested him as well. I think they arrested him because he was my friend.
HM: And now Faiz Baluch is also free and you are both living here without any problems?
HBM: Yes, Faiz and I are free now, but there are no special privileges for us. We are just living in this country and passing our time.
HM: A moment ago you said the Baluch peoples’ response was very good. Do you call yourself a Baluch Nationalist?
HBM: Well, I call myself a Baluch well-wisher. I care for the Baluch nation a lot; you can call me a Baluch patriot . . .
HM: Can you tell us a bit more about this—what your opinion about Baluchistan is? What do you want from the Baluch people and what do you want to accomplish?
HBM: I think of what happened to the Baluch Nation in these last two decades: foreign forces attacked and invaded our country, both Iran and Pakistan. They divided our country in several parts. Then within Iran and Pakistan they divided Baluchistan into different small sections. They are trying to eliminate the Baluch Nation. I would say the Baluch are a Nation and an entity. International laws say a Nation should have a sovereign state; the Baluch Nation should also work for their National Independence. Personally, I’m working for Baluchistan’s freedom.
HM: Mr. Marri, you said that you are working hard for Baluch rights. As you know around the 1970s Baluchistan had an elected government. Why this government was dismissed?
HBM: Yes, in the 70s, the Baluch had a coalition government; it was the first Baluch Nationalist (pro-Baluch) government. It was said that it wanted to work for the interests of Baluch people. Despite Pakistan’s illegal occupation of Baluch land, the people of Baluchistan gave Pakistan a chance to live with peace and equality as two nations. Punjabi people dominate Pakistan and after nine months they dismissed the Baluchistan government, with the help of a Sindhi Prime Minister, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.
They detained the Baluch leadership and accused them of collecting weapons to work for the independence of Baluchistan. They found some weapons in Iraq’s Embassy in Islamabad, which is very far from Baluchistan; yet they still accused the Baluch for this. They detained thousands of people, Baluch political leaders and workers, under that pretext.
HM: How did they dismiss the Baluchistan government? Did any foreign countries help them?
HBM: Bhutto, when he dismissed the Baluchistan government, he detained all Baluch pro-Baluchistan leaders—almost 100% of the leadership was arrest, and he initiated a military operation against Baluch people. The Baluch people had also taken up arms in self-defence. Bhutto, in the meantime, sought help from other countries, especially Iran, to crush the Baluch rebellion against the Pakistan army because Bhutto had realised that the Baluch struggle against Pakistan (military) was gaining momentum.
HM: Mr. Marri why did you choose to go into exile in Afghanistan? Can you tell our viewers about it?
HBM: Pakistan had started its barbarism against the Baluch people by indiscriminately killing Baluch elderly, children and women. Wherever there was an uprising in Baluchistan, the Pakistan military would bomb the whole area, killing everyone, regardless of age, sex or occupation. Apart from the advancement of ground troops, they used fighter jets, helicopters and long-range heavy artillery. The most brutal aerial bombardment took place in Chamaling area where thousands of people were killed in a span of a few days only. Because of these brutal actions of Pakistan, the Baluch had to move to Afghanistan. They started migrating to Afghanistan in 1973. They took refuge in Afghanistan; the then Afghan ruler Dawod Shah, because of historical relations with Baluch people, allowed the Baluch to stay in Afghanistan. Since then, many hundreds of Baluch had moved to Afghanistan due to Pakistan’s atrocities against Baluchistan.
HM: So you did your education in Afghanistan?
HBM: I continued my studies as we moved to different countries. Although it may not be called a proper or formal education, I studied in Baluchistan, then continued my studies in Afghanistan and later moved to Russia for further education.
HM: What did you study in Russia?
HBM: I studied journalism in Russia.
HM: During your stay in exile, what was the most difficult thing for you?
HBM: When we went to Afghanistan I visited our people there and the most difficult thing was to see our people living in such appalling conditions in Kandhar and Helmand, away from their homeland. Generally the Baluch Nation was helpless at that time and then becoming a refugee in foreign country was very difficult for them. We were moved by our people’s terrible conditions. They had left their home country for the Independence of Baluchistan and the rights of Baluch people. From there on, we decided that we needed to work for the liberation of Baluchistan. And we started working on it; the struggle still continues . . .
HM: When did you go back to Baluchistan?
HBM: I went back to Baluchistan in 1992; I had finished my education in 1990. I used to visit Kabul because my father was living there. After the end of Najeeb (Dr Najeebullah’s) government, the “Mujahideen,” as Pakistan and American used to call them—we Baluch call them Mullahs—they had invaded Afghanistan and Kabul. They ordered our people to go back to Baluchistan. We knew this was all being done at the command of Pakistan and the ISI. They had made life very difficult for our people in Helmand, Afghanistan. People who would go to the city for their everyday business were being killed without any reason. At that time my father was living in Kabul and he had decided to move to another country, but the Mullahs would not allow him to go anywhere else, but Baluchistan (Pakistan). He insisted and recorded his protest that he did not want to go back to Baluchistan, but the Afghan Mullah government made it clear that he must return to Baluchistan and that he would not be allowed to go anywhere else.
After that, we all returned to Baluchistan and started to live in our own homeland. When I left Baluchistan I was around 8 or 10 years old, but when we came back I was around 23 years old. At that time we saw a complete change in the Baluch Nation. The Pakistani Jihadist propaganda, ideology of capitalism and commercialism were on the rise; in short, people had found several ways to sell their belief and loyalties. They had mostly blocked all efforts on behalf of Baluch Nationalism; Baluch Nationalism was on the edge of extinction. I observed that it was very difficult to continue the work for Baluchistan’s Independence, but we still continued to contemplate the different ways to work for freedom. The enemy had changed the thinking of our Nation, especially of Baluch leadership. They had been offered lucrative seats for their own comfort and benefit. With the passage of time, however, friends started to educate the Baluch people that Pakistan was stealing and plundering Baluchistan’s wealth. They told the people that only some individuals and leaders would benefit from these seats and ministries, but that there is nothing for the benefit of the Baluch Nation in it.
HM: How did you go back to Baluchistan, I mean were you given amnesty or was there any other reason?
HBM: There were around 30 thousand people who had come back from Afghanistan. It was not an amnesty, but Pakistan had asked these so-called Mujahideen, the Afghan Mullahs, to eliminate our people, so we had no other option left but to come back to Baluchistan. We came back and settled in our motherland—the land did not belong to either Pakistan or Punjabis. It was Baluch land and we are also Baluch and it is our land too . . . that is how we came back.
When we returned and settled in Baluchistan, Pakistan tried to weaken us because they knew that we would not abandon the struggle for Baluchistan’s freedom and Baluch rights. At the time we came back, we were less powerful because the ISI and the Mullahs had weakened us. They did so by creating enemies against us, within ourselves, within the Baluch people, to weaken and divide the Baluch Nation. Back in Baluchistan we did politics as well, but not for our benefit or to become rich; we did politics to find a way to help the Baluch nation to win Baluch rights. Then we were asking for Baluch rights—that bothered the Punjabis; they were not ready to give the Baluch their rights. Baluch right is Baluch resources, Baloch sea wealth and all, but Pakistan was not ready to give them their due rights. They just wanted to bribe some people (ministers). Even I took part in elections, but not for my personal gain, I thought I’d represent the Baluch nation and do something for Baluch land, but I was disillusioned. They tried to bribe me like many others to maintain the relationship of master and slave. They wanted to employ the same approach with me, but they failed because they offered me money in the name of projects and other works, which I refused.
After they failed to buy me off, they started false cases against us to apply pressure. At the end of 2000, they sent me messages asking me to convince my father to allow them to explore for oil and gas in our region. They perhaps did not know that our main goal was to protect Baluch National resources and that we would not allow any exploration until Baluchistan was free. We knew that Punjab would give us personal benefits, but our Nation would not receive development and equality. Our decision was to work for Baluch land and we are Baluch Nation’s representatives.
HM: They ate our rights – you repeated this several times. What is the relationship between Baluchistan and Pakistan in your opinion?
HBM: Baluchistan, Eastern Baluchistan, which is today occupied by Pakistan, was an independent county. When the British were leaving the region they had recognised Baluchistan as an Independent state. Baluchistan had announced Independence on 11 August, three days before Pakistan came into being. Baluchistan had her own two houses of parliament; it remained Independent for almost nine months. After that, the Pakistan military attacked occupied Baluchistan and in the very same year, 1948, Prince Abdul Karim went to Afghanistan and other countries to seek their help against the illegal occupation of Baluchistan. He started the struggle for Independence. At that time also, Pakistan used military might and Prince Karim was arrested and imprisoned. The struggle or war for Independence continued even after Prince Karim’s arrest in 1950 and afterwards. Hence, Pakistan’s atrocities against Baluchistan never stopped. After every ten years, there would be a huge military incursion—they deceived Nawab Nauroz Khan in the name of holy Quran and asked him to come down for negotiations, but when he came, they arrested him. He died in prison and his young sons, along with their companions, were executed. Pakistan is an artificial state which has been created by the British; it has no regards for the Holy Quran. Pakistan uses everything to serve her own interests.
In the 1970s, they killed several people in the Marri, Bugti and Mengal areas, and all over Baluchistan they carried out offensive military operations to suppress and enslave the Baluch. Baluch leadership tried to adjust and give a chance to Pakistan—even after the forceful annexation of Baluch land they wanted to live side-by-side for peace, development and prosperity, but Punjabis have always enacted a policy of master and slave and treated the Baluch like slaves. I think if in 60s or 70s if the Baluch had been granted equal rights, they might have even lived with Pakistan, but there is no equality. There are several things that remind us of this: Sui gas was discovered in Baluchistan, but Baluchistan has not been provided gas even after 50 years. There are several other such natural resources being extracted from Baluchistan, but Baluch people do not benefit from them; other nations, especially Punjab, is taking everything. They use Baluch resources to weaken the Baluch in order to continue their rule over Baluchistan.
HM: Why did you leave Baluchistan and come to England (UK)?
HBM: I left Baluchistan in 1999. There was no specific reason. Yes, they had arrested Nawaz Sharif at that time and Musharraf had taken over through a military coup. However, before I left Baluchistan I had been contacted by the military through some of my families. They wanted to explore oil and gas in our area; they asked me to convince my father to allow them to work there. I told them that we don’t have any right to do so, and we will not allow any exploration of oil and gas in our area of Baluchistan in this situation—when the Baluch are living the life of slavery. I said you can start work by force, but we cannot make decisions about Baluchistan’s national resources—they were not my property, even though historically we have an influence there; the natural resources are the property of Baluch people. It would have been a big mistake (sin) if I had made a deal over Baluchistan national resources.
HM: What happened after that?
HBM: After that I left the country and went to Europe, and then I came to Britain. In the meantime a Marri Baluch judge was killed. They killed two birds with one stone; they killed one Baluch ‘the judge’ and arrested another Baluch ‘my father.’ They registered cases against us. Father was in prison for over one and a half year. Actually this all happened because we did not allow for oil and gas exploration in Baluchistan, especially our area. They wanted to intimidate us with such acts; it was the continuation of Punjab’s policy of carrot and stick. They wanted to start a military operation and then dig out Baluchistan’s resources. I think this was the continuation of Punjab’s plan to kill all those Baluch who did not accept Punjabi domination and to give incentives, i.e., cars, houses and money to those who sided with the Punjabis – this was the policy of Punjab. After that I did not return to my country. Now thanks GOD, the Baluch have become aware of their rights and have started to struggle for their freedom and rights; they are defending themselves.
HM: Did the government of Musharraf start a war in your area then?
HBM: Musharraf had found informants among Baluch people in most of the Baluch areas. He bought and hired some people; we can call them agents or traitors, to use them against Baluch and the Baluch cause. However, Baluch patriots started the struggle and this struggle for freedom not only spread, but intensified everywhere in Baluchistan, places like Gwader, Chaghia, Noshki, Quetta city, Sibi and Mastung. Hence everywhere the Baluch have risen up [for the defence of their people and freedom of their land]. Everyone has realised that the Punjabi cannot be our brother—they only want to enslave us and make us fight against each other. That is why the entire Baluch Nation has started struggling for their rights.
HM: You spoke of movement – what is the different between the current struggle and past movements?
HBM: In the past whenever the Baluch stood up for their rights and started fighting for the freedom of their land, Pakistan started propaganda campaigns and it worked. Sometimes they said it was a fight of just a group of people; sometimes they said it was a war of only few tribes and sometimes they called it a fight of Sardars for their own vested interests—this way they limited the struggle to some areas only.
But this time the entire nation has risen up together in the last 8 to 10 years. They realised it is a fight for National liberation. The Baluch realised that the Punjabis not only want to expel them from their own land, but they want to eliminate the Baluch from the face of the earth. People of Gawader have understood that foreign people are being accommodated on their lands and the native people are being expelled. Similarly, everywhere people have become aware that this is neither a Sardars war, nor of any particular groups or tribes; this a struggle for the liberation and defence of Baluch land.
That is why now every Baluch—young and old—are part of this struggle. Baluch students organisations are working hard for liberation; Baluch mothers and sisters have a significant role in struggle for freedom. Their participation in the struggle is very encouraging and a source of inspiration for us. They are presenting the Baluch cause with great zeal and passion to the world community. Personally, I’m very impressed and encouraged by the participation of Baluch sisters and mothers. Our friends can now see that their hard work and struggle will not go in vain and it will intensify. The enemy will have to leave our land and we’ll be free, Inshaallah.
Nawab Bugti was a democrat and had held high posts and status. But when Nawab Bugti started asking for Baluch rights, Pakistan martyred him. They used to call him a good Baloch or a good Pakistani, but whenever Baluch ask for their rights, they are regarded as evil and they’ll be martyred. What was Ghulam Mohammad’s fault? Nothing! He was just demanding the freedom of Baluchistan through peaceful and political means, but still they martyred him. Similarly, they martyred Lala Munir Baluch and Sher Mohammad Baluch. They were all struggling politically and they did not call for armed struggle. Pakistan is pushing our youth to the mountains [armed struggle] and forcing the Baluch to pick up arms to counter Pakistan aggression.
They arrested Dr Allah Nazar from Karachi and took him to Punjab, Multan. Later they accused him of theft—someone is struggling for Baluch National freedom and they accuse him of theft in Multan or DG Khan. I think Dr. Imdad was also with him at that time. This is the level of Pakistan’s thinking; low thinking. They killed Nawab Bugti because he was asking for Baluch rights. Today Brahumdagh Bugti is struggling for Baluch rights and defending the Baluch, so is Dr Allah Nazar. I say, Pakistan has pushed our youth against the wall and today whatever they are doing we 100% support them because if they don’t defend the Baluch land, the Baluch will become extinct. The Baluch Nation should help them and make them strong in this struggle for their rights and self-defence.
HM: You talked a lot about the atrocities in Baluchistan, missing people such as Ghulam Mohammad Baluch, Lala Munir Baluch and Saher Mohammed Baluch. You mentioned Martyrs such Nawab Bugti and Balaach. Lately a new trouble has emerged in Baluchistan – they started throwing acid on the face of children (girls) what do think of this?
HBM: Pakistan is committing many atrocities and applying different methods to discourage Baluch people psychologically. Sometimes they killed people by throwing them from helicopters. I have been told that in Kahan (Marri area) they tied a man to a jeep and dragged him around until he died. All these methods are being used to discourage and psychologically weaken Baluch people. They [Pakistani security agencies] are disappearing people to demoralize entire families. The enemy thinks that such acts will scare people.
This is yet another such gruesome method of the intelligence agencies—that they started throwing acid on the faces of Baluch children, sister and mothers. Our enemy doesn’t know the rules of war; they just do anything to discourage the people, so as a final resort they are throwing acid on the faces of our sisters and mothers. They’re trying to link it with Islam by saying that these children were not hiding their faces, etc., but I believe the intelligence agencies of Pakistan are involved in such heinous crimes because Baluch do not do such things.
HM: You say Pakistani intelligence agencies are involved. Do you have any proof of this?
HBM: For throwing acid! We may not have any proof of the intelligence agencies’ involvement. However, we have observed it during the course of history. Recently a teacher was fired upon and injured in Mastung, Balochistan. The local people have arrested two men (the culprits) and both had ID cards of intelligence agencies on them. Similar incidents happened outside Baluchistan in Sindh. Sometime ago the leader of Sindh Qaumprast Party was attacked in Sindh, Karachi. His body guards retaliated and killed one of the attackers and arrested one of them. They were also carrying intelligence agency ID cards. The enemy is doing such things everywhere; it is the nature of Punjabis that they will do anything. They don’t differentiate between what is legal and what is illegal.
HM: Three little sisters were attacked in Kalat and two in Dalbandin; their lives have been destroyed. What have you done to record your protest in this regard?
HBM: I condemn such acts. It is not in Baloch traditions; women are highly respected and have a high place in Baluch society. This is a trick of the enemy to weaken the Baluch. I say we Baluch must unite against such brutal acts, and then we can succeed. As I always say, the Baluch should unite for their freedom; they should not fell prey to phony politicians. They are deceiving people in the name of provincial autonomy, self-determination and federalism. All these roads lead back to square one, meaning slavery. We have to follow the way that leads to freedom. We should openly ask the Baluch Nation to work for Independence. My request to the Baluch Nation is to unite and work for freedom.
HM: How do you see the future of Baluchistan?
HBM: Baluchistan’s future under Pakistan occupation is one of no tolerance for other nations and religion. As we witnessed, they splashed acid on the faces Baluch little girls. They are trying to make us an intolerant society. Everyone is trying to impose their ideology on others. I say if Baluchistan gets Independence, we are a patient and tolerant society. We (free Baluchistan) will benefit the region and intolerance will decrease because we will be free from Pakistan’s influence. Punjabis are provoking people to turn against each other on a religious basis. If Pakistan’s influence is not ended, then I fear in the coming years the Baluch might follow the path of the Taliban. Pakistan wants them to stray from the path of the National struggle. Pakistan wants the Baluch to work for Pakistan’s expansion of religious influence in world and leave aside their liberation struggle.
I say we have to unite and work for the Baluch land. We have to convince the world that as a sovereign nation, we will economically benefit the whole region. We can create an atmosphere of peace, tolerance and stability in the region that will affect Sindh and other regions, as well. We can work for prosperity and development in the region.
I think an Independent Baluchistan is the best way forward; it will benefit the whole region, world and as well as Baluchistan. There should be equality and democracy in Baluchistan. We should have tolerance for other religions and we should apply the same law to other Nations (ethnic groups) that we will have for the Baluch people. If we become an intolerant society after freedom, then we cannot develop. Also we cannot progress without democracy—we have to work for democracy: “One man one vote”. We should choose our representatives on the basis of merit. Today [our representatives] are leaders or tribal people; they must also understand that they should give a chance to everyone, to people from different backgrounds and spheres of life.
HM: Thank you very Much Waja Hybyair for giving time to Rozhn TV and our viewers
HBM: Thank you.
HM = Homayon Mobariki
HBM = Hyrbyair Marri
http://www.balochwarna.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2891
No comments:
Post a Comment